Why Purpose is More About No Than Yes
November 25, 2021 | On the Biz Bros Podcast
Katie Burkhart was excited to appear on the Biz Bros podcast where she talked about purpose-driven business and why saying no more than yes keeps you focused.
Listen to the episode below, on Apple Podcasts, or on Google Podcasts.
read the transcript
excuse any typos as we tried to capture the conversation as it happened.
Katie: Oh, thank you so much for having me! I’m really looking forward to this conversation and getting to know both of you—who clearly understand hustle, growth, and journey. And I love your statement about making big things happen. So, I know this is going to be a great conversation.
Eli: Absolutely <Absolutely>. That’s what we’re all about. And that’s what your topic is really, really honing in on.
Katie: Yes. You are my people.
Eli: Okay then. Let’s kick this thing off. Tell the audience a little bit more about you, Katie. Tell us about your background and a little bit more about where you are today.
Katie: Absolutely. So, I actually, when people ask, they hear that I’m a serial entrepreneur and I’m into business and the business mode, they say, “Clearly you studied for your MBA, and you’re really into business.” My response is always, “No, actually, I got into business quite accidentally.” I studied design, writing literature, and publishing, and I have a Masters in Creative Writing. So, how did I get here?
I was working at a job with a boss who just...we didn’t click. And I was willing to work with it, I was willing to make it happen. And then we had this moment where, you know, I’m under the deadline, killing myself to get everything done, to be really intentional with how I’m investing my time and my resources because I don’t really have enough of either to do the absolute best work that I could do and achieve the goals that were put in front of me. And for whatever reason, she determined that this particular thing had to be done. And that wasn’t the thing I was working on because there were twelve other things I was working on that needed to be done and were more important. At least as I saw them.
And she just lost it and ended up marching me down in front of the rest — other members of the team, other people working on the project — you know like absolutely ripping me a new one. And I used some expletives that were not particularly great and basically told her to go to hell. Publicly. And in that immediate aftermath, there was relief. Then there was, “Oh, that’s not really the person that I want to be.” You know, that’s not the type of work I want to do. That’s not the environment I want to be in. How do I start doing something differently?
And after giving it some real thought, people assume, well you want people who treat you really well. And I was like, “Well, that’s nice, but that’s not actually what bothered me.”
What really bothered me was that she was being random. You know, that she was particularly interested in this thing. There was really no reason for why she was trying to redirect my time there. Whereas I could give her many on what it was that I was doing and how it was going to deliver us better results and help us to reach our goals.
So I ended up — I had been working on the side with nonprofit organizations — and had been applying design and storytelling in the branding capacity. These are already organization that understand what purpose is. Even those most nonprofits don’t have a purpose, they a mission. That’s a conversation for another time. And I was helping to architect those strategies. And what I found in a lot of cases was they didn’t have a really good reason either, beyond “it’s a good thing to do.” Or somebody suggested we do it. And I was like, “This isn’t particularly strategic either.” And may very well have me and my team, as well as people on their own team, spinning their wheels for no particular impact.
And that’s what ultimately led me to the purpose-driven model. And what I found once I got out there was there were a lot of definition for this model, some of them conflicting, some of them not particularly clear. And I said, “You know what, we’re gonna—” after a lot of conversations with people who were working in impact space or in an impact company, conversations with people I identified as more like myself who aren’t necessarily out the save the world, per se, but really want to do something of significance. As well as talking to practitioners and doing a lot of research.
I ended up settling on #1: We need a good definition. #2: We actually need to start developing a system for how the business operates so that people can start to make the shift toward being in a purpose economy where time is actually more valuable to the people in the economy than money is in most cases. Which has been a really exciting journey for me, and I’m excited to share some of that with you as we’ve zeroed in on one of our key principles, which is about no more than yes.
Speakers 1 & 2: Very cool. Amazing. Wow.
Katie: Thank you.
Eli: Like you said, we are on the same wavelength. <Yeah> This is a really good show to talk about that. Wow. I’m super excited. This is great. Thanks for that intro and that big background. I think that’s going to help us out a lot with the topic.
Katie: You’re welcome.
Eli: So could you dive in a little bit more kind of on...before we kind of dive into the topic...kind of every day life for you. At what you’re doing. How you’re helping clients. Really what is it that your core mission is. Like really diving into that. In your business.
Katie: So let me try to explain this with a story ‘cause I just had a great conversation with someone the other day that I think illustrates in many ways what we’re doing. He was introduced by a colleague, fantastic person, clearly has a wonderful backstory of his own. Is a doer in every sense of the word. He said, “Here’s where we are with my organization.” And boiled down his challenges into a statement — and I’m paraphrasing — quite similar to this one. “I just can’t figure out how to get all the moving parts to work together. I’m not sure how to communicate what it is that we do in a way that’s really clear and compelling. And I’m also not 100% sure how to fit in the revenue, the systems, the people in a way that’s going to get everyone — you know, he didn’t use all of those different people; he used some, some use them all. But basically, to say, “How do I get everyone on the same page. I’m not sure how to make all of that happen.”
And in my different ways, that’s what I spend a lot of my time doing. I’m typically privileged to be working with fantastic CEOs and founders who are running high impact teams — teams of talented people who are showing up, with not just their skills but their passions. Saying I really want to make big things happen, so how are we doing that? And saying, we’re moving really fast, things are happening a lot of the time, there’s a big change happening, we’re growing — whatever it is. And then coming back with those particular problems.
And then we work with them, typically in a — which is a little unique for our type of company — in a very hands-on way to facilitate their own ownership of these different pieces and of their organization, so that they’re really making that shift in a way — to sort of sidestep this one, to back up — to shift this in a way that when we leave, it doesn’t all just collapse. We want to make sure we’re skill building as much as we’re solving problems at the same time.
Eli: Whoa, you’ve got the golden ticket. Sounds like you’ve got a really cool opportunity when you work...
Katie: Thank you!
Eli: Very cool. Awesome. <So> Go ahead. <back and forth about who is going to speak>
Kyle: So tell us. Let’s dive in a little bit into the topic <Yes, I was just going to say...> why purpose is about no more than yes. First of all, what does that mean to the average person <yeah>. Like why does purpose mean no more than yes.
Katie: So, I think that it requires us to go all the way back to “what is purpose?” Because I think that in and of itself is just defined in a myriad of different ways <agreements>, some more productive than others.
The way I define it — and MatterLogic defines it — is to say your purpose is your fundamental reason for being. It should center on why you exist, what you do what you do, and why what you do matters. In our world, matter means you provide long-term or lasting value, and value comes in many shapes and sizes. For some people, that is solving world hunger. For other people, it’s delivering key marketing services that are going to propel businesses to their next level. It can still be lasting value, which is really important.
And how you start to get to that no more than yes conversation is a lot of people will talk about purpose as your North Star. And that’s not untrue. It is absolutely an unmovable beacon that you’re going to pursue but never reach.
We like to talk about it as a lens. A lens is something that can be calibrated and focused. And when you have a purpose and you’re getting ready to make a decision, you should be able to take any decision, filter it through the lens of your core strategy, and arrive at something that aligns with your purpose.
Now, that also means you need a core strategy, which includes your mission, vision, values, and story. Your vision tells you where you’re going. Your mission tells you what you’re going to do to get there. And your values tell you how you’re going to do those things. Your story is what brings them all together into a meaningful narrative.
Once you’re using this as a lens, all together, and you’re really trying to hone in on that focal point of purpose, what you find is it serves as a filter for everything you should turn down. As opposed to saying yes to everything.
Kyle If you’re trying to be super, like you said, focused on that North Star and exactly where you need to be, that’s makes sense because as business owners, as passion-driven individuals, you tend to overcommit yourself. Right? <Yes> It’s like constantly saying yes to things but if you have a real focus on where you need to be in life and the purpose and passion behind that, yeah. Yeah, you gotta say no.
Eli: 100% I think those little pieces, pieces of lens, dictate...
Kyle: Yeah, we own a photography and video production studio, so we were pretty excited about that. But it’s like to move Yes, Man with Jim Carrey.
Katie: Yes, in many ways absolutely because what I think we don’t think about is yes is actually really easy because you never ever have to make a choice. No means you have to choice about what you’re doing and what you’re not doing.
Eli: Yes <yes> That’s very cool. So what <laughter> So, Katie, when you come into a business, and you’re working with these founders and CEOs, is that something you really have to coach them on. Is what you just talked about? And do you help them find that purpose? How do you...what does engagement look like when you first start working with a CEO or founder?
Katie: We always have to start with a lot of education. Because...and not in an obnoxious way that thought leaders sort of throw that around like a privilege thing. Our whole book is open. We publish everything open source. We do not want to hide our stuff from you.
But we’re cognizant, both in my experience and my team’s experience and in the research that we’ve read, that while every increasing numbers of CEOs report that they have a purpose and that it’s valuable, 50-60% of them will also report they don’t know what to do past having one. And somewhere between 25-30%--only 25-30% of teams—will agree that the purpose has been embedded. So not only do the leaders understand they have a problem, but their teams think they have an even bigger problem.
So, this whole concept is a big piece of what we’re going after. And we always start — and this surprises people, I think, but we always start with your people and what matters to them. Because I think as leaders, we can get very excited about what motivates us. But the reality is, no one really cares unless they’re digging into your story. What they care about is the value you’re delivering to them.
And that’s why our purpose — and the way we define purpose — is that way. So we always want to start with facilitated conversations where we’re really listening to — we don’t call them customers, we call them the humans you serve. You are here to serve these people and to deliver value in their lives and improve their lives. Which means you need to understand exactly what that experience is like for them in their words. And that’s usually a big lightbulb moment for most of our clients, even those that really passionately care about delivering value to them, but they usually haven’t taken the time to ask the right questions and really listen in on what’s going on in a deliberate type of way. So that’s always where we start, as well as understanding what’s going on with the whole team versus making this a leadership only conversation.
Once we’ve helped to build that strategy, then so much of our work—to your excellent point—is about saying, “Well, how do this align back? How do we align this back?” And we facilitate everything in that way, and—in many ways—serve as a guide, which is what we call it, to keep them in that aligned capacity as they’re going through.
And then one of the big things that we’ll do as a step in our process is totally devoted to decisions. How to make a purpose-aligned decision. We actually, as part of our system, want leaders to set guidelines for how they get made, and we have things for like if you purpose-driven, you should do these things and other things beyond that. And then encourage them to implement using a decision case, where you actually have to — for major decisions — make a case why this is aligned choice and an aligned investment in what we’re doing and write it down so there is actually a record of what’s going on. Which is especially important with remote work and asynchronous teams to understand the logic of what’s happening at the business. And this seems incredibly small, but it’s one of the hardest things to get people to start thinking about because we make millions of decision every day. We don’t even think about it. And what this is forcing them to do is exactly that...think about it.
Kyle: <Wow, wow> It’s like sometimes you have to shift people’s think, right? You’ve gotta realign and education them, and I’m sure sometimes it can be quite the eye-opening for business owners. It’s like a full— If you’re going into business to make money, which I mean—okay, everyone does that—but if that’s like your sole thinking behind it. I’m going to make money; I’ve got this idea. You need a paradigm shift almost. You need to like turn the direction and be like, “Wait a minute. How am I serving these people?” What do my clients, customers, whoever really care about? What’s the value I’m bringing them at the end of the day.
Eli: And then getting your team to buy into that. And just get behind that.
Kyle: I love that.
Eli: Yeah, that’s really cool. We did...our sustainability program has couple elements of that. We do a program called Snap On/Plant One. We plan a tree for every photo we take or every second event (?) we deliver. But creating impact but purpose about why we’re in business. It’s not just to make money. It’s to serve our customers but also be able to give back and make an impact as a company. Getting our team behind that was huge for pushing that initiative forward. So, I think what you said there is 100% true.
How does that play into these more remote work environments? I feel like it’s harder to get people behind a purpose when you’re doing it through Slack. How is that changed for you?
Katie: So, I think this is where you really get into — to sort of going back to something we were talking about a little bit earlier — this idea that you have to have a reason for what’s going on. And that thing should align back — and that’s a word that we use a lot—and there are many ways you can do it, technology or whatever. That’s the documented, we’re now moving forward part. But actually getting it in place...I’ll give you an example.
We’re working with an organization right now that is having some challenges with team. It’s not that they’re unsure that the things they’re doing are valuable. It’s that they’re not quite sure where to put this new department that they basically inherited because they merged with somebody else. And they’re like, “Now, not everybody seems to be on the same page. We have some heads butting over who is responsible for what.” And they’ve taken a fairly traditional route to try to solve that.
What we’re doing is we’re turning that completely on its head and saying we need to start all the way back with why the heck are we here? Where are we going? What are the outcomes that your customers really care about? How do we define success in plain terms? How do we then look at the system of what you’re doing. Not individual products as if they don’t all relate together. But one cohesive system and what you’re to deliver that value. And then let’s talk about how we align your team members into that process.
And it requires a couple of things: 1) Breaking down silos, big time. The traditional, “we’re all going to sit in a department and marketing is going to do marketing and funding is going to do funding and product is going to do product” is over. Because the world simply moves too fast for us to wait for all those intercommunications and connections to happen. We need to be working together.
And the way we assemble those teams is in alignment around the structure of the system and the outcomes that we’re actually trying to pursue. So the people understand — like we’re cascading it all the way down — to their individual seat, and they say, “Oh, here’s the thing I’m contributing to, and I can trace the line on how it contributes to these other things.” Which is very important, whether you’re in the same room or not.
And then shifting from that also, you’re looking at shift – I was listening to one of your episodes where you were talking about the 40 hour work week – and I love this whole movement (great episode by the way). Love the whole movement conceptually. Where we push back is you’ve got to get away from hours entirely. It’s not about saying you have this many hours. It’s about saying, here are the things that we need to achieve. Here’s how we’re going to measure success. It’s up to you to pick the tactics that you’re going to use, test, iterate, and refine them to be successful in whatever way you want to do it.
And in a remote world, working remote, I think in some ways is a reflection of other themes that were already there. One of them being – Adam Grant did an article in the Wall Street Journal recently where he was talking about freedom. You know, that what we’re really looking for is freedom. And to me, that was very much in harmony with our point that time is more valuable than financial capital.
So once we understand all those pieces, we can focus more on the deliverable, give people more of the autonomy and agency that they need. But then it does come back to that decision-making. How do we make sure we all understand how decisions are getting made? And we’re making decisions using the same guidelines so that we don’t have to be sitting in 80 million meetings or reaching over Bob at the cubicle in order to keep the business moving forward.
Eli: Yep. Wow, that’s fascinating.
Kyle: My mind is going a million miles.
Eli: Yeah, I know. I love it. I love how you kind of start from the beginning, the foundation, and then you build up on top of that.
Kyle: So, something where my mind started going towards was like what are indirect outcomes that you see when you’re helping clients. I mean there are very direct ones, which are kind of like what you mentioned. But what are some other ways that this kind of domino affects an organization?
Katie: We start to see some really interesting things – and they surprise me sometimes because it’s like “I didn’t know that’s how you were going to take that. Okay.” But that doesn’t mean it was a bad thing.
One of the big ones that we see – one of the things that we’ve seen recently is people jumping on the concept of a feedback loop. And saying, “Oh, it’s not just that I ask them questions, and then they respond. I respond back and then respond again.” There’s actually a process to make sure that we’re listening to people. And learning from it. And then listening again. And learning from it. And listening again. And getting really excited to put those in place. It’s really exciting.
We had one group where we came in to do impact storytelling, which is related to this and a big piece of being purpose-driven because impact storytelling and be abbreviated to “is.” Meaning it grounds you in what’s actually happening. And helps to bring home the point it’s not about you. It’s about what you help others do, achieve, or become. And we did a session for a group, and they left that being like, “It’s not about you.”
And I had one person write in to say, “I’m applying this to all parts of my life. I’m actually applying it to how I’m buying my house. And I wrote a letter because I was in a competitive bid. I made the letter all about them, and I won the bid.” And it’s like, wow, really didn’t see that happening. <laughter and agreement>
But it was interesting to see them start to think in stories and then take those tools to other places. So that’s also something that’s come up. Perhaps less unexpected, we’ve had some groups take this really to heart and ax whole products or programs, completely reinventing things from the ground up. Explore different funding models. Being willing to get on board and go through the whole process and say I want every piece of this to be as intentional as possible. And I’m really excited for your calibration process where we’re going to, on a schedule, actually know when we’re going to be reviewing these things, when we’re doing the listening, how we’re going to learn so that we can keep doing them better versus just introducing new things. We’re going to do what we do better — that may be new things or that may be something else.
Kyle: I love that <I do too> That’s what I was looking for. Things like the mortgage <Yep>. That is so cool. And it really takes a leader to move forward with something like that. Really calibrate your thoughts. And there is a real ripple effect. You just don’t know how it’s going to happen. You know, you keep your mind on your business—of course—and your employees and how it will affect them, but long-term, it’s like who knows how it can affect one of your employees. <Right> And they can use what they learned. <Right>
Eli: I totally agree. I think it makes you think more macro vs. micro. <Right> Because maybe the day-to-day things can get pretty daunting and overwhelming, but if you think about it like this is the purpose-driven element of it, makes you think a little bit more macro.
So question for you, you’re working with and helping founders kind of sculpt their purpose. What is your purpose, Katie? <Ohhh>
Katie: That’s a great question. I would say my purpose is probably to get people to waste less time or to make the most of the time they have. And that’s where I get most excited. Part of that is being brought to life by putting MatterLogic out there into the world. Talking to awesome people like yourself. To make sure more people know what it is and how it might benefit their business and putting teams in place to actually help them do it. It’s a lot to do by yourself.
And that’s really exciting. But I hope over time, there are other ways that I haven’t yet thought of that start to put that out there. I can think back to being a kid. I used to lifeguard, which was a miserable job. That’s the epitome of watching the clock tick by and determined I never ever wanted to do that. Whatever I did, I wanted to make sure I could go to bed at the end of the day and be like that was a good one. We got something done. And that’s really what I look at for myself. How do I do that, and how can I keep coming up with new ways to do that.
Kyle: I love that. <I do too> Curveball. Eli, what’s your purpose.
Eli: Oh man. I just <indecipherable> <laughter> Well, Kyle, um, my purpose is...well, one of my little mantras is life is too short, so just laugh. And I think I believe in that inspiring people to be positive. I think there’s a lot of negativity in the world, so my thing is I want to walk into a room, and my purpose is to bring positivity to a room. <I love that> That is my purpose.
Kyle: You do a fair job of that.
Eli: Thank you. I was hoping you’d say good...fair. Anyways, Kyle, what is yours?
Kyle: Educate. I love educating. <Educate, that’s cool> Educating, in its own way is...I think the best feeling I get is when someone gets it after I’ve educated them. <that’s cool> Whatever that education is. Whatever that education is, I think Biz Bros helps me be able to do that. <it’s true> Volunteering with things, and it’s just fun to be able to use the skills I have to to help others in a way <mold minds, I love it> impact.
Eli: That’s amazing.
Kyle: So, Katie, as we wrap this up. Where, if someone’s listening to the podcast and they’re like, “Hey that one episode. This is what I learned from them.” What is that one thing? What is that one thing that you hope someone picks up from this episode?
Katie: I hope that if you take nothing else away, you walk away saying, “Purpose is about having a point.” That there should be a reason as to what you’re doing as a business — everything we’re doing as a business. I need to be deliberate in their decision-making. We need to be willing to turn things down, so that I can focus on the things that have the most impact. And not just for me as a business leader but so I can help my team members do the same thing. Because I as a business leader, in the words of I believe the CEO of Whole Foods, “I’m responsible for making sure they have a reason to get out of bed in the morning.”
And the more I can make sure they understand how their contributions go all the way up to our purpose, the more successful we’re all going to be, the more value that I can drive to the people that I serve. That would be the one thing I would want them to take away.
Eli: It’s incredible. <Love it>
how to get connected
Kyle: I really love the thought process behind the CEO. That’s cool. And then I’m sure there are a lot of places they could find to talk to you. It sounds like you’ve got a lot going on. Where, if someone wanted to connect with you, where would they find you at?
Katie: So, if you really liked — all listeners out there — the way that I’ve outlined a purpose-driven business, which I understand might be different than what you’ve heard before and you want to learn more about how to actually apply that into what you’re doing in your company or you’re just curious, the first place I would go is to subscribe to the Weekly Logic, which is a short brief, it comes out every Monday straight from me to you with things you can actually put into practice in your business. We do it one thing at a time so you can focus and do something with it, sooner rather than later. Best place to go is to matterLogic.co/weekly.
If that’s not your thing, the other best place to get ahold of me is to find me on LinkedIn. I connect with everybody who connects with me. I’m always down for a cup of virtual coffee to hear what you have going on, what big things you’re making happen, and if there is anything I can do to help, I’m more than willing to do so.
Kyle: Amazing. You heard it. Be sure to reach out. <Yes> I’m definitely going to sign up for that newsletter. The Weekly Logic. <100%> It’s really cool.
Well, Katie, thank you so much for joining us on the Biz Bros Podcast. I learned a ton. <I did too> I’m inspired right now, so <Yeah> So I’m really excited. <Educate the world, Kyle> <laughter>
Katie: Thank you both so much for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation and getting to meet both of you. You are a delight to have a conversation with, and yes, I think you’re doing an excellent job of being both positive and educational.