How to Show the Value of Your Agency Services
November 2023 | On The Marketing Agency Show
Katie Burkhart appeared on the The Marketing Agency Show for a conversation with host Brooke B. Sellas. Do you struggle to quantify the value of your services to clients? Not sure how to measure value on every project?
Listen to the episode below.
read the transcript
excuse any typos as we tried to capture the conversation as it happened.
Brooke Sellas: We all talk about measurement and results and ROI a lot, and I know that's not the whole point, which you just explained beautifully. But how do you tangibly measure that value that you're providing or delivering to your clients? And how do you ensure that you're doing that consistently across all of your projects or your client portfolio?
Katie Burkhart: So, I think some of that is, one, always remembering the value is based on their definition, not on yours. So, you're going to have to talk to people. I know that's like a—But a lot of times, what happens is we sit down and we're like, “of course people need my widget. It's amazing.” And I'm like, “that may be, but I think it would be best if you really went out, talked to real human beings, and figured out exactly why, and what that looks like, what that sounds like for them. And, even better, what language they use to talk about it versus the snazzy words that come out of the marketing machine.” Once we understand that--we call those outcomes--help us to understand, what are the outcomes? What do you need to help people do, achieve, or experience so that they get that ultimate value that your business exists to deliver?
Brooke: Hey, everyone. Today I'm super excited to be joined by Katie Burkhart. Katie is the Mastermind behind MatterLogic, the only system for running a business in today's value economy. And she's quickly become one of the go-to experts in this space. She is also the founder and CEO of MatterLogic Company, a strategy and execution firm, and Matter7, a storytelling studio. Katie, welcome to the show.
Katie: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Brooke. I'm excited to be here.
Brooke: Really excited to talk to you today. I put out a poll on LinkedIn, and you and I kind of talked about this, I think when we were doing the discovery call for this show--I put out a--it was a few months ago now, but in any case, I put one out and I said, “what's the hardest part of marketing today?” And the answer that won was a resounding “proving the value of what you do.” So, I know that what we're talking about today is on everybody's mind. It's top of mind in general, but I think just with the economy that we're going through--the current state of the market, let's just call it, is also kind of driving that value. So I just, I'm really, really thankful that you agreed to be on the show, and I'm really excited to chat with you.
Katie: Yes. I loved hearing that from you and was like, “yeah.” It's one of those things that I think, somewhere in there, we all know we need to do. And in a lot of cases it's a lot easier said than done.
Brooke: A hundred thousand percent. Okay. So, first questions first. Why did you decide to start your own agency? What did that journey look like?
Katie: It was much more of an accidental saunter, not so much a bleeding race to the end. I ended up going out on my own, pretty much, to start, and was like, “I think this is going to be great.” Founded Matter7 as a comprehensive design studio that did design of all sorts. And just over time was like, “Hey, where do my skills and interest, converge with what my clients are telling me they actually need, or in some cases want or wish they had?” And how do we start to bring that marriage together?” So, very much that. And the MatterLogic Company was born out of sort of the same process of, “geez, I see that you're struggling with this, or that this could be better. How do I help you to experience that? How do I get you there?” And sort of figuring out how my identification of someone else's problem--how did we start to change that to, these are things, this is value I know that I want, or I know that I need, and how do we go about delivering it? So, it very much came afterwards but was informed by experiences we had with clients at the older company.
Brooke: I love that. I feel like in a lot of the conversations I've been having with other agency owners, I feel like the really successful agency owners start with listening. And that's what you did, right? You were really listening to what the client was telling you--or potential client--and said, “okay, here's the problem and here's how I'm going to solve that problem,” or “I'm going to create something that helps solve that problem.” So, that's fantastic advice. And what kinds of clients do you typically serve? Is it a specific niche or industry, or is it across the board?
Katie: Depends on the agency, but both agencies serve teams at some type of inflection point in their business. Whether it's a more routine inflection point, you know, “We've reached that point where every three years, every five years we sit down and we take a look at our strategy in a bigger way.” Or it's a more specific inflection point, like “We just brought on a brand-new CEO. We're launching a brand-new product.” Something is going on that's making them say, “we need to take a step back. We need to take a look. We need to potentially fundamentally do work differently.” Which is where the MatterLogic Company comes in. Or we've realized we need to communicate--we need to talk about ourselves differently. And that's more of where Matter7 comes into help.
Brooke: Very, very cool. I love how deep we've already gotten, and we're just at the beginning. But I think one thing that could be subjective is the word “value,” or the definition of value. So when you talk about the concept of a value economy, can you discuss what you mean by that and what that means for businesses?
Katie: Absolutely. And first step--you're a hundred percent correct, because value for a person is 100% unique to them. What I value and how much I value it compared to other things, how much I value it within the context of my life right now, that probably looks very different from your map of value and how you understand value in your life right now. And what's important to you and why. There's a lot there. And understanding that that value has many dimensions is a big piece of the value economy. And understanding what that means at an individual level, what it means at a business level, is that--the value economy name sort of tells you what it is in the title, which is that it's an economy focused on value.
And for businesses, that means they need to shift their focus to be about driving and ultimately delivering value to the people they serve. And one of the ways to sort of illustrate what that looks like is, when I was a kid, we always used to do an egg hunt at my grandparents' house. And I--and in our case, we did Easter egg hunts all by ourselves. You were sort of on your own. But let's pretend for a minute. We're doing a team Easter egg hunt. It's you and four other kids. And you get together and it's like, “okay, we're going to go out there and we're going to do this.”
And team A is operating under the economy and the way that we do business now, which is, we just want more, and we particularly want to make as much money as possible. So, they sort of run out there, spray and pray. They're going in all sorts of different directions. They're stepping on eggs left, right, and center. They're running into each other, and they get to the end, they're a hot, sweaty mess, and they got some eggs, okay? But it wasn't pretty, let's be really honest.
But the other team said, let's be really specific. Who is it that we're trying to serve at the end of the day, right? We want to gather these eggs for a specific reason. And for businesses, you serve someone. For an egg hunt, maybe you just have a particular reason. We're really more interested in the eggs with Reese's peanut butter cups, right? Because that's our favorite candy, right? So, we want to go out and understand that that's what we're looking for. But we as a team have built that lens together.
We're using the same lens as a whole team, not just as the leader. The whole team's got to be on board and understand what we're doing, and we're going to go through more methodically, more deliberately, and pick up eggs and say, “is this an egg that should be in our basket? No, we're going to put it down.” So, we get to the other end. We've run into each other a lot less because we've talked about how we're going to do this. We understand why we're going about doing it, we're doing it together as one concerted effort, and we get to the end and we probably, or maybe have less eggs,
I'm going to say maybe, right? Because more wasn't really our intent to begin with, but our basket is full of whole eggs that have that peanut butter cup inside, because that was the point of what we were doing. And that's why “what's the point” is my favorite question. Understand the point of what you're trying to do. We wanted to get eggs with peanut butter cups inside of them, and we succeeded at that. Just trying to do more, just trying to make more money, you could do anything to pursue that focus. And it's not really great for business. It's not really great for the people you serve. It's not really great for how your team does work every day.
Brooke: And who doesn't relate to peanut butter? Shout out to all my peanut butter lovers!
Katie: Right? And I'm all sorts of over the--I love those peanut butter eggs every time Easter comes around. Yes. Peanut butter egg done.
Brooke: Yes, yes. Reese's, if you're listening, we love you so much, and we appreciate you filling our baskets full of candy. But yeah, no, I--that makes so much sense, right? Like, I love candy, but I specifically love peanut butter candy, which is actually true. So why am I going out and spending time and energy on, SweeTarts if my goal, ultimately, is to have some sort of peanut butter experience?
Katie: Yep.
Brooke: So--Okay. So, we're in this value economy mindset. What shifts do we need to make to make sure that we're really there? And do you have any examples that you can share with us from your own agency or client examples that we can talk about?
Katie: A hundred percent. So, there's five primary shifts. They're not the only ones, but they're some of the biggest ones, I think, for how businesses are actually doing work. And I won't get into some of those sorts of “deeper, meaningful assumptions” about work. because I thought that may be a little much for today. But at a top level--We've already talked about the first one, which is that why you exist needs to shift. And I think for a lot of people, it sounds easier than it is. But getting comfortable that there may be instances in your business where it's like, “well, we see easy money in the short term, but that has nothing to do with the value that we exist to deliver. It has nothing to do with the unique capabilities of our business. We need to say no.” That's a hard thing to do, right?
And that's what gets into the second shift, which is how you think. And that “no” really becomes a much bigger part of your business. And I imagine we'll touch on this more today, but getting comfortable that being strategic as a business, in many cases, is more about what you choose not to do than what you choose to do. Because I think we are all sort of taught in this abundance, in this evermore economy that we exist in, that you've gotta be doing all the things all at the same time. I look at your experience, which is a little different with social, but everybody who's like, “we've gotta be on all of the social media channels all the time doing all of the stuff.” I'm like, “why? What's the point of doing that?”
Actually, that leads really well into the third one, which is how we define “productive” in the first place. So, we've all been watching this “work from home” saga, as to people in the office and people from home. Every once in a while, I get lucky, and somebody really hits on the conversation we're actually having, which is that it's about productivity and it's about the way we've been defining productivity for so long that many people don't even understand that they're doing it, which is output. If I'm not--Well, it's predominantly input first and then output, but not really getting to outcome.
So, the first one is, “if you're not putting in hours, you can't possibly be productive.” So I need to come to work. I need to watch you type on your computer to be like, “okay, you were productive,” right? And I'm just doing an action. And even, in some cases, producing an output does not necessarily mean you were effective.
So, to help businesses move from input to output is a really big step because it's like “folks, looking at my own agency, I don't need to monitor whether a collaborator at Matter7 is doing their job.” I will know very quickly if the draft of the article that's due does not show up. I don't need to watch you type it. I can have confidence that you're doing it. And I have confidence that our process is built in such a way that, if you don't show up with it, we have enough time to adjust for that. But we know that there's a problem without stalking you. But really to move into effective, what I ultimately want to know is, “great, we did this thing. Did it deliver the value that I thought it would? Did it move us to where we needed to get to?” And starting to think more in terms of effectiveness than thinking in terms of action or just doing stuff.
Which, I think, is a bigger shift than people even recognize it is, because it's such a default. And in some cases it's easier to say “I did stuff” and to feel busy. It's harder to say we were really effective. So that's three.
Four is to recognize how you treat people. And one of our phrases is, “you need to treat people as someone, not something.” And a lot of businesses, particularly bigger businesses, deal with this challenge of “we are used to treating our team as something” Where it’s--just wholly replacing people with AI sounds perfectly logical, because well, they're just something. They're just the smithian, putting heads on the pin at the pin factory. That's where we are.
But recognizing that your team are people, they're human people, and most importantly, in the value economy, you deliver value to them too. For us, number one is, you need to pay them for the time that they invest in their work for you. This is part of their life that they're contributing to your business. Understand that that's time they don't get back. That's really important.
And then, number two, respect the time once you have it. Please don't put people on aimless projects. Please don't set people on aimless meetings like it's good for you too. But respecting that they're a real human being and, and they're coming to work to learn, to grow, to do things beyond just take that paycheck home will not only make it a better team, but you'll be delivering value and hopefully bringing the best people along for the ride. And really, ultimately, co-creating the path forward for your business with your team members.
And then the fifth one is somewhat straightforward, but again, it's another one of—People will say, “Well, if I'm focused on value and I'm doing all of these things, don't I also have to make money?” Yes, but instead of treating money as the point as why you're all coming to work every day, money is something that is a resource. It's not the goal. It's a necessary resource that allows us to do what we do every day, that allows me to put the support in place for my team to do their best work, that allows us to deliver the value we exist to deliver, to listen to our customers or whoever we serve so that we can do it better. So that we can deliver value more deeply. We need that resource. And the best businesses figure out how to inextricably connect where they're getting their resources from to the person that they serve.
And the further that gap becomes, the more likely that you're actually a nonprofit charity. But for for-profit businesses, I really want to see the person I serve being the person who gives me the dollar. And sort of thinking about that in marketing and the marketing land, I think one of the examples of that that's really interesting is Substack, who's really working to make sure that this is not an ad driven platform. Because I'm now getting my primary money not from the person I'm supposed to be serving. And we've seen how ugly that can get, and in some cases, how much of this person is actually being disserved in order to serve the source of the money, because they need those resources to run their business. So I'm always more excited when they've figured out, “Hey, this is the person who we're delivering value to. How do we make sure that that's where we're getting our revenue?’ And that they're doing that for the writers who have readers subscribing. They are also making their money from the writers being successful. Substack will not be successful if their user is not successful.
Brooke: That's fabulous advice. And I kind of want to dig deeper into that. So, we're talking about that fifth step, which is measurement, which, we all talk about measurement and results and ROI a lot. And I know that's not the whole point, which you just explained beautifully. But how do you tangibly measure that value that you're providing or delivering to your clients? And how do you ensure that you're doing that consistently across all of your projects or your client portfolio?
Katie: So, I think some of that is, one, always remembering the value is based on their definition, not on yours, right? So, you're going to have to talk to people. I know that's like a--but a lot of times, what happens is we sit down and we're like, “of course people need my widget. It's amazing.” And I'm like, “that may be, but I think it would be best if you really went out, talked to real human beings, and figured out exactly why, and what that looks like, what that sounds like for them. And, even better, what language they use to talk about it versus the snazzy words that come out of the marketing machine.” Once we understand that--we call those outcomes--help us to understand, what are the outcomes? What do you need to help people do, achieve, or experience so that they get that ultimate value that your business exists to deliver?
Because we talked about the fact that value is typically multifaceted, so there may be a couple of outcomes that have to come together in order to get to that ultimate value. The piece that I think is really interesting here is twofold. One, you talked about data and measurement, and two, you talked about consistency.
So, when you take a look at how you measure, one of the things that we have to get—to help clients with, and the MatterLogic Company does, is “where are your input loops? Where are you getting input from people into your process?” And they're intentionally meant to be loops, because it's a conversation. You have to get back to them. You don't just ingest it. There should be some type of continuous back and forth that's like,” okay, I heard this. Here's what we're doing. Okay, here's how you're responding. Okay, here's how we're adjusting so that that's happening.”
Some organizations--A lot of ours will do some type of annual survey or annual deep dive conversation, something that's very deliberate and set up with very specific questions that allow them to understand how well they're doing against those outcomes. And the measurement piece is, sometimes that all works out really nicely, and you can come up with pretty numbers and people really like them. The truth is, that doesn't always happen. And in some cases you won't even always have perfect data. In this case--But if you don't ask, you're definitely not going to know where you can balance out asking someone and hearing what they're telling you with some behavior that you're able to measure. Whether that's monitoring how they're--something they're doing on social media, whether that's asking them a question about their business that's very factual. Is that an indicator to you that you aren't, in fact helping them to achieve these outcomes? It's always great when you can have both, but in so many cases, what you have to do is ask, were you able to achieve X, Y, and Z? And if not, tell us where you got to, so that you understand what's going on.
So, there's that piece. The consistency part is a little interesting, because part of what you're looking at in a proper--what we would call “outcome measurement framework” --is what, of your actions, are best driving those outcomes? Because sometimes, what you'll find is you need all of them, but they don't all help you deliver in the same way. This piece of your company, for example, is the piece where we help clients at the MatterLogic Company with their strategy. We'll deliver, in some cases, more value and it’s more essential than, perhaps, other things we do.
It doesn't mean we shouldn't do the other things, because we want to get them through the whole--We want you to experience the whole outcome as deeply as possible. We want to deliver as much value as we can. But we recognize that there are some big rocks that we can't compromise on. There are others where we have a little more flexibility. Or if a client says, “I really want this, but I don't want to do this, or I don't have time for this,” we can explain that. That may not get them as far as if they were to do the whole offering, but we understand where those levers are and where we put a line in the sand and say, “you're not going to get the experience you want without going further.”
But also, it’s really helpful if you're running experiments--which you should be--as to how to deliver value better and saying, “Ooh, what we learned is this thing not really driving value at all. Or it used to, but things have changed. So, maybe we don't need to keep putting effort here.”
Brooke: Yeah, I love that, because consumer behaviors change all the time. And so, I don't think anything in what we do is “set it and forget it.” So, I think that is really, really good advice that hopefully everybody watching and listening takes to heart. You should always be experimenting.
Katie: Yes. All of the experiments. I love experiments. And I love when people do them, like our--a group B, really deliberately, and understanding, “Hey, we're going to go out. This is the outcome we'd like to achieve. We understand the point of running this test. Here's how we can run it in a small way and see if it's working before we double down and run it in a bigger way to see if it's working.” That's--To me, that's the--Half the fun of being in business is being like, “I think we have a”—where--One of the questions that people often ask us, with value, is, “does that mean that now as a business, I'm totally beholden to whatever my customer cooked up today as something that they'd like to have?” And the answer is no. You want to understand what they need to do or achieve or what it is that they want, which is where that experience comes from. What do they want?
Your genius is the other side of the coin, where you bring your expertise, your experience, your trial and error, your willingness to experiment to the table and say, “I think this is the best way to get you there.” And this is where that Henry Ford example of “if I asked them what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse.” She didn't actually say--But you're not asking them what to build. You're asking them what value they need. You need to go be a genius and come up with something like a car, which they would've never thought to even ask for.
Brooke: Okay. So, if you're a leader at an agency, which you are and I am, but for anybody who's listening in, they're in some sort of leadership role where they are. How do you--How do leaders, or how can leaders help their team? Everybody from strategists down to creatives. How can they help the entire team align with the value-first ethos that we've been talking about? Because that seems impossible sometimes.
Katie: Yeah. Um, there's two--three ways to do this. One: Understand what it is in the first place. I think your team, particularly your frontline people, will know very quickly if C-suite went into a room and closed the door and threw some pixie dust in the air and went, “we think this sounds great,” and came out, because they're like, “yeah, ain't nobody we're talking to talking about that.” Like, you totally cooked up a load of hogwash. And now I have to go try to present that to someone. And it doesn't make any sense. Focusing on the value delivered to real people and actually engaging them is a wonderful equalizer. So that it's not about whether Bob's idea is better than Bill's or whether Tim's department is more important than Fran’s, and we're all into this sort of internal infighting.
It's more about, we're one team that is supposed to help these people, and this is what these people are telling us. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, okay. There's a certain sense of, “okay, that's truth. That's truth that we can all get behind because it isn't really about us. It's actually about them.” And that can be really helpful, once you know what it is. The second part is, you need to go out and communicate it to other people and you need to do it frequently. I think a lot of times what happens, particularly in value conversations--and I think this is something that marketing agencies may recognize better than others--, is that we assume that this is an external-facing conversation. It is not exclusively an external-facing conversation. You need to be able to communicate that this is the value we exist to deliver, and this is how the pieces connect together. This is how your contributions connect to this overall picture to your internal team members.
Because you don't have a business if they're not doing what they're doing, from the uppity-up C-suite person down to the janitor that makes sure that the operating room is clean so that your patients aren't getting infected. They're all incredibly important. And if one person's not making their contribution--If you're running a sharp business, a focus business, something's not going to work the way that it should be and value's not going to get delivered the way that it could be.
And the third part is, I think the best way to have those conversations is to make them conversations and to do it through stories. So that some people see those as adverse things. And I think--Brooke, I'd love to hear your thoughts, given your focus on conversation and how that really plays into story and how that works.
But we really see telling your story and sharing your story as a conversation with another person. And recognizing that you need to--this needs to be a back-and-forth exchange, rather than you just blasting out at people. And particularly for your team being able to--maybe there's a part where you're like, “Hey, here's what's happening.” Or, “here's this story.” Or, “Let me show you the story of Sally, and who Sally really is, and what it looks like when she achieves these outcomes.” There still should be a conversation component about, “okay, talk to me about--do you understand how you're helping Sally?” And give them an opportunity to be like, “here's how I see my role.” You may be amazed that actually, people understand it better than you think. Or may be seeing themselves in a way that you are not seeing them that's actually even more valuable than the way that you conceived their position in the first place. But however you look at it, that active conversation versus sort of passive, “I'm just going to pelt you with our shiny marketing message” …I think it's typically much more successful.
Brooke: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And we've talked about this in our discovery call, but a lot of brands have started to look at connection as a passive connection like you're saying. Like, “Oh, they followed us on social,” or, “Oh, they signed up for our newsletter,” or whatever. That's not connection, right? Because connection is two-way, which is why I think the conversation part is so important. And I'm completely aligned with what you're saying right now.
Let's talk about delivering value over and over again. Because it's--we are talking about a total mind shift in some situations. With a lot of companies, in my opinion. So how--I mean, that just feels like it comes with its own set of challenges. So, what are some of those obstacles that you see with clients as they go on this journey of becoming more value-minded? And how do you overcome those challenges?
Katie: Um, the one that we've seen--The ones I've experienced are probably a little different than what I've seen with clients. And that--some of that's—My head is so in this space. I'm a little odd. But one of the most fundamental, and--I was on talking to somebody today--and it's incredibly unsexy, is that this requires a great deal of discipline. And most good things require a great deal of discipline, right? And sticking to it, and understanding how you're making the decisions, communicating what you're doing, what you're not doing, and the reason behind those choices. And doing that over and over and over again. And I think it's very easy for us, particularly—again, at this point of, in the United States anyway, pretty extreme abundance and sort of constant push for more and more and more--to be like, “Oh, I don't have time for that. I have to get onto the next thing.”
Or we just, we have to do this thing. We’ve got to wedge this in. We have to. And to sort of lose that, or to get--my favorite--very excited by shiny object syndrome. Oh, AI, we now need an AI strategist. We have to start doing AI. And it's like, wait a minute. Why are we not going through--It doesn't have to be overladen, but why aren't we asking the questions that we know we need to ask? Why aren't we slowing down and taking those 15 minutes, that half an hour to be like, “okay, are we sure that we want to move forward in doing this?” And one of the ways that I sort of illustrate that is the—Matter7 had a client. One of my team members was like, “they're doing this event.”
And they're like--well, you're there working on this video project for them. And they're--they think we should just, we should interview a whole bunch more people. because the camera's there. And I'm like, “okay, well what's the point of interviewing those people?”
And he just sort of blinked. And I'm like, “why are we interviewing them? What is it that they'd like to do with the footage that we create? Who is it that they're thinking that we might interview?” Because we may want to talk about things like, who's the best person to really talk to? What questions are we going to go about asking them? Where do we ask them these questions? What should the room look like? What should I--We can make much better decisions if we understand the point of what we're doing before we go about doing it.
And that--There is a level of discipline there, that--We can just get very comfortable being action-focused, crossing things off our list instead of taking that extra discipline, that extra step to make sure we understand the point of why we're doing it in the first place. Or, in some cases, assuming everybody does, when in fact actually they don't. So that discipline is really the number one thing. And you can extend that to so many aspects of their business, the way that we try to help with it. Because you asked that question, how do we help at the MatterLogic Company is through so much of our--we use the word methodology, even though I think that's very academic. Our approach is to hinge on questions and answers and helping people to simply ask better questions.
But we also have what we call the “calibration process,” which is how are you checking in every three years, every year, every quarter, every month to see how things are doing. To deal with what we call surprises, either good or bad that showed up that you didn't plan for, so that your team understands what's going on. And you have those regular touchpoints to keep people connected as well, because it can be so easy to lose sight of the whole because you're focused on your part. So, there's that piece.
The other one that I've found, as far as challenges we've had with sort of consistent value delivery, is remembering to stay in your lane. And this is another way to say the same thing, but I think it speaks very much to marketing agencies and agencies as a whole, which is--It can be so easy to have a client that's come to you for the thing that you do best, to get the value that you deliver, and to do it and to do it really well. And inevitably, they're going to say, “I have this other thing, can you help me?” And your impulse is to be like, “well, of course, why wouldn't I want to help you? You're a great client. There's business there. This seems like a good thing.”
But we had done that in some cases, experimentally--in some cases more haphazardly than I would have liked--at Matter7 in our earlier years. And in almost every case, all it did was get us into trouble, because we then had to go out and, in some cases, find expertise we did not necessarily have in order to be able to do the project the best that it could be done. Because I do not send out crappy work.
Number two, it also changed the way that the client perceived the relationship, which is something that I think we don't always think about until after we've done it. But once we became sort of a jack of all trades, we were a commodity. We were no longer an advisor, we were no longer an authority, we were no longer specific. We had essentially diluted ourselves to being a largely exchangeable pair of hands that could sort of be cut up and parceled out. And it was like, “Ooh, this is not a thing that we want to keep doing.”
Brooke: I think that's fabulous advice. And so many of the guests that I've interviewed have said something in the same vein of what you're saying. Pick a niche, stay in your lane. Like shiny object syndrome. Don't get, don't get--I actually feel like you're speaking directly to me. I'm over here slapping myself on the wrist because I don't have patience and I can get distracted very easily. But I think ultimately what you're saying is “when you get excited, it's okay, but sit back and start to ask yourself some of those questions about what you're really trying to achieve.” And it may not be running after that shiny thing. Or maybe it is, and we can do it like in an experimental way.
Katie: So, let's talk about--yeah, because sometimes you have a great idea and you do actually want to go after it. And that's something that I think marketing agencies have a tendency, but not always, to attract even--I think we're all creators in our own way, but--to attract highly creative types. So, the idea of like, “we've decided on our thing, we've gotten really good at it, now we're going to do the work and we're going to do it again, and we're going to do it again, and we're going to do it again.” And they're like, “Oh my God. I want to go create something.” So, I understand that pull as well, up and above the, “oh my goodness, they need help.” And I actually--I'm in a business to serve people. I get that. I'm on board with the value economy. They need more help. How do I help them get it?
Brooke: Yeah. So, let's talk about that. Because the marketing landscape is constantly evolving. And I think that's maybe part of the reason why we might get pulled in different directions or get shiny object syndrome. Because there's always a new platform, or new app, or new algorithm change, whatever it may be. So, as we know with the marketing industry, we're going to continue to see that constant involvement. How do you foresee the value mindset in the future as we go forward? How do you prepare your agent--How are you preparing your agency to be at the forefront of the next wave of changes? AI, whatever new app it may be, but--How do you keep that value instilled within the company, but also, how do you see it helping you in the future?
Katie: So, I think there's a couple of ways to look at this, but the first question I always ask is, “should we?” Just because you can do something does not mean you should. And it's like, “just because we can have the AI write an article does not mean that that's something that we should do.” So much of our work at Matter7 is about building a relationship with a person. We see stories as conversations, so we're typically interviewing someone, having a human being actually on a call. Having that interview with another human being is our preferred way to actually do that, because that conversation is really where the magic happens. It's where you find a tangent, you follow a thread, you do whatever, and we're like, “yeah, we could maybe write articles using AI, but we don't really think that we should.”
And that's a very small example, as far as how we look at what we do and the value that it's ultimately delivering to our clients, which is really where that comes in. But I think there are much more broad cultural questions about what should we have technology doing and what should we have a human doing. Which I'm happy to talk about ad nauseum.
But, thinking about marketing agencies. In my own agency, that was--our first thought was, “okay, this is a tool, right?” And that's the second framing of like, “technology is a tool. It's something that we can use.” I don't care how cool the latest tool is, it's still a tool and should be aiding our ability to deliver value. And admittedly, with every new wave of technology, there are roles that no longer need to be done by a person, but there's often as many new roles that we need a person for that we didn't need before because this technology didn't exist.
And now we need a person who understands how to deploy it, who understands how to monitor it, who understands how to manipulate it, who understands how to use the tool in the best way possible. Because all tools are only as good as the hands you stick them in. So that's something that I think, as marketing agencies constantly thinking about and doing that in a positive and proactive way versus my third point, which is where I think so many AI conversations end up. Especially in the marketing place. It's a petrified paranoia that the robots are coming for your job. And I one hundred percent understand where that comes from. We had that conversation at my company also, because I always think it's smart. But I think those--I think that threat is always there, whether it's coming from technology, whether it's coming from another agency, whether it's coming from an app that now does what you do.
I mean, at one point, Matter7 was a broader branding agency, and people were like, “oh, they're now making software where I type in a couple of keywords and it pops out the whole brand identity for me.” There have always been things that will potentially take your business away. Understanding not the “what do we do,” but “what value are we delivering,” and constantly saying “what's the best way to go about delivering that value?” “What tools can we bring to the table?” I think, is the better frame, is the better conversation to have. But if you're sitting paranoid about your job, we did have that conversation and said, “you know what? We're going to see.” It was not about defensive, it was about being offensive and, as a value economy business, saying, “what's this going to mean for the people we serve?”
Matter7 specifically serves businesses at an inflection point, but specifically high-trust businesses. Things like consultants, agencies, lawyers, nonprofits, somebody where you are 100% going to have to trust them before you buy from them. That's a big deal. And with the flood of AI, what you're seeing already, even though AI has been around forever, is this increased, “you're a bot, I feel like you're a bot, I get responses emails all the time.” Where they're like, “you're not really a human.” And we're--we need to be positioning ourselves and what we do and how we do it to make sure that, throughout the whole process, not just the deliverable of how we work with our clients, we're helping them to deal with the fact that establishing, building, cultivating trust and real human connection got harder for them too. And asking what does that mean? And how we go about actually helping them to experience the value, that largely hasn't changed. That part didn't change, but the obstacle is, the context in which our customers are now existing has changed.
Brooke: I am digging every second of everything you're saying. It's just, it really is resonating with me, and I just love how, if you come from a place of value, it just makes things a little bit easier. But what about the people who are listening or watching that may just be starting their agency? Or maybe they're struggling to find that unique selling point and adopting a value-driven approach. What advice would you give those newbies, let's say, or people who are struggling in the space when it comes to being value driven?
Katie: I would say the advice I have to give myself often, which is, “go back to who it is that you actually serve and go talk to them.” And is—Well, one, who are they? So many of the people that are struggling can't answer that question well, and certainly can't answer it as specifically as they likely need to. Particularly if you're just starting out. How do you get even more specific in who you're trying to reach, who you're trying to connect with? Because the more specific you can get, the more specific you can be in the value you deliver, the more specific you can be in the words that you use, the more specific you can choose tactics to actually go out and connect with them. The more that you really have not just niched what you offer, but who you're actually trying to help.
And that may expand over time. But start small with who you're trying to get to, and really make sure you understand who they are. And then, number two, please go out and talk to real people. I think we have a real-- a real--I can see you smiling over there--a real sort of aversion to, “oh, you mean I have to talk to other people?” Yes, yes you do. And not just once. Talk to them again. Ask them again. And then that third piece of, talking to people is good, but attempting to sell to people is even better. Even before you think you're ready. Don't just call people who fit your ideal, your--the person you serve that fit those ideal parameters and be like, “well, what do you think?”
Almost everybody that you ask a question like that is going to be like, “seems really cool, I guess. It’s really awesome what you're doing. Super congratulations.” Whatever. Completely useless input, folks. What you want to actually do is be like, “I'm attempting to” --even if it's hypothetical, even if you're like, “I'm not ready to sell this to you today, or I wasn't attempting to pitch you today, but this is what working with us would look like and this is what it would cost. I need you to tell me honestly, are you going to sign on for this?”
Or, actually, just try to sell to people and see what happens. And in some cases that may mean you end up with clients a little before you think you're ready. But better to know, to hold on your selling process and service those clients and know that there is actually value out there that they're willing to invest resources into versus finding out later that it's a super cool idea, but you haven't--you're either talking to someone who doesn't see enough value to invest those resources to make that exchange, or you haven't yet landed on something that is valuable enough for that exchange to happen, period.
Which, taking time to figure that out is some of the most important time that you'll ever invest in your business. And you don't need shiny marketing and a gorgeous website and perfect materials to go out and have those conversations. You really don't. You need a couple of bucks for Starbucks, a Zoom camera, and some commitment to being truly curious and figuring out how to put those pieces together of the who and the value and the dollar. Or yeah, they value it, but they value at it for less. So what does that mean for how I go about delivering it? Maybe I have to do it differently in order to get these pieces to connect. So, it's--to me, it's the most interesting part, but there’s no way to get out of the talking to other people piece.
And if what you ultimately land on is, “I love making watercolor pictures of SpongeBob, but I can't find anyone that values them enough to like sustain my living,” what you have landed on is an excellent hobby. And hobbies exist in the value economy. I think they're currently underrated in our existing economy. That somehow, if you're not making money off of the activity, it's not valuable. That's not actually necessarily true. It may only be of value to you, but that doesn't mean it's not a good way to spend your time. It does, however, mean that you don't have a business. You have to deliver value to someone else in order to have a business.
Brooke: Right. That one little sticky point. Well, I am thrilled and honored that we were introduced. I'm so glad to know you and just to have access to you. And I know that people who are listening or watching will also potentially want that access to you. So what are you working on? Where can people find you? How do you prefer people reach out and connect with you?
Katie: So, there's two really easy ways to get ahold of me. Number one, LinkedIn. I do actually--I'm not actually a robot. There is a person behind there if you connect with me. I accept pretty much every invitation I get. If you drop me a direct message and say, “Hey, I heard you talking to Brooke, it was an amazing conversation. I want to talk to you more,” I will give you my calendar link and we will find some time so that I can get to know you. And if there's something I can do for you, I'm happy to do it. The other way to stay connected to me is to subscribe to my newsletter which is called WTP. It does stand for “What's the Point?” And you can find it at wtpfocus.substack.com. And I talk about all of these things, and things that are very business practical, but also the value economy at large, and what does it mean to be an individual member of that economy And what's it going to take for us to move more people into this conversation and space, and actually shifting our focus and asking better questions to make this really become the way more of us are participating and looking at the world.
Brooke: Awesome. Well, Katie, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and getting us all to think more about the value economy as we move forward in business. Really appreciate it.
Katie: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And, odd note to end on, but I just made the connection that you went to Penn State, and I was just on with somebody talking about how my mother's a grad, and I haven't been up to see a football game or hang out in Happy Valley. So happy to see people in worlds that I love, those six degrees of connections. And yes, that's why having conversations with real people is so delightful: because you learn so much about them. So thank you so much. Thanks.